Crypto Unplugged Special with KILT Protocol

In this episode, we have a very special guest from a highly anticipated project. Ingo Rübe, founder and CEO of KILT Protocol, discusses blockchain technology, his long-term vision to change the web, and provides a deep overview of KILT Protocol. Ingo also touches on his life before blockchain and we end this show with a fun question and answer session.

Date of podcast recording: Wednesday 18th August

About KILT PROTOCOL

KILT is an open-source blockchain identity protocol for issuing self-sovereign, anonymous and verifiable credentials for Web 3.0. KILT enables innovative business models around identity and privacy, addressing the need for reliable identity solutions in the digital world. It allows users to claim personal attributes, have them attested by trusted entities, and store the claims as self-sovereign credentials. KILT Protocol is developed by BOTLabs GmbH in Berlin and is the technology on which SocialKYC, a decentralised identity verification service, is built.

https://www.kilt.io

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KILT Protocol - @Kiltprotocol

Ingo Rübe - @ingoruebe

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Transcript

Crypto Unplugged Special with Ingo Rube of KILT Protocol

Intro:                           00:01   Want to know more about cryptocurrency? Well, you're in the right place. This is Crypto Unplugged, a fact-based straight talk and no nonsense. Look into the world of cryptocurrency. We discuss trading strategies in market advice, review up and coming projects and more, and we've got years of experience and knowledge that can help new and seasoned investors become more competent and comfortable navigating the cryptocurrency landscape. You can also find us on Twitter @ascryptowealth, Dr. Crypto   and decode Bitcoin. But now let's get to the podcast. Here's your host, Dr. Crypto

Dr. Crypto:                  00:47   Welcome listeners to a special Crypto Unplugged podcast. I'm your host Doc, and I'm telling you it's absolutely scorching here where I'm based at the moment, but happy to be right now in a nice cool office and as usual Oz is here with me to keep Crypto Unplugged podcast as balanced as possible. Oz, how you've been keeping this week.

Oz:                               01:07   Yeah, I've been great. went to a theme park yesterday; had fun with the family, so yea All good

Dr. Crypto:                  01:13   Fantastic, Oz and I'm sure you've got a bit of a head rush at this age, you know, going on those mad, crazy rides and stuff.

Oz:                               01:22   I stayed off them.

Dr. Crypto:                  01:24   Hmm, interesting, good. That's the best way to keep it because, you know, we don't want a migraine. And a today listener, we are excited to have someone who represents a project that has had many in the crypto space, excited and anticipate each and every development that they bring. So, yes, listener, we have Ingo Ruby, the founder and CEO of KILT Protocol, Ingo, thank you for joining us today as our special guests. How are you doing today?

Ingo:                            01:53   Yeah, first of all, thanks for inviting me. I'm almost perfect. I would say everything's fine here in Berlin.

Dr. Crypto:                  01:59   Fantastic. And how's the weather in Berlin Ingo?

Ingo:                            02:03   Well, almost everything is good in Berlin, it decided to turn into autumn this week. Until Sunday we had summer but then turned in one day and now it's Autumn, it's a bit cold, I would say and a bit rainy. But yeah, maybe it picks up a bit again.

Dr. Crypto:                  02:23   Well, that’s the typical thing we're used to those climate changes by the hour and a minute in Europe, but you know, as long as you're safe and sound Ingo on your perfect like you mentioned that's absolutely what we're concerned about. So, Ingo, our listeners and community have become accustomed to our special guests telling us about their journey into crypto and blockchain space. So, before we go on to discuss a KILT Protocol, which we're all very excited about by the way, let's kick this off by you telling the listeners what you were up to before entering the world of blockchain and crypto,

Ingo:                            02:58   I can do that. So, yeah, starting at the beginning, maybe a little bit, I'm a computer scientist. I studied here in the Technical University in Berlin. I have my first startup in the nineties of the last century that was in medical informatics. I sold this company, I think in 2000, and then I started to make an industry career working for Axel Springer and Burda, which is both two big publishers or media houses here in Germany and also probably worldwide. And I worked for first, first six years or so for Axel Springer and then six years there. And then after that, I moved to crypto. And how did that happen? So, for Burda, which was my second employer I worked as the CTO. And part of being CTO is obviously that you fly around in the world attend conferences and stuff like that to bring new ideas into the company and all that.

                                    03:58   And of course in my annual schedule, the south by Southwest was an important part. And so, I went to south by Southwest I think it was 2015, maybe 2016, but I think it was 2015. And if you have ever been there, this is all yeah, pretty exciting, but all the shows there and all the speeches, you hear there it's just for everyone, everyone can relax and just understand what the people are saying. And I went to one of the shows which was given by one of the founding members, I would say, or core tech team of Ethereum. And we were sitting there with 200 other people, and then this guy started talking and after 20 minutes he asked did anyone understand anything that I said? And the whole group said I didn't understand anything and then I thought, okay, now this is exciting.

                                    04:52   And then I started digging into blockchain and what it is. And so that was basically the start of my journey into blockchain. And when I came back I of course, reported to the group board and told them there's one more thing coming up in technology, and this is going to change the world. And this is going to be really important, not only for whatever industry, but for every industry, and this is blockchain. And then we started discussing how we actually would handle blockchain and then we said, okay let's have our CTO found a company for that. And this is was the time where BOTLabs was born. And that is BOTLabs is the company behind the KILT protocol. So, that was actually my journey into blockchain. Pretty straightforward, actually.

Dr. Crypto:                  05:40   Fantastic. So, you would say or we would say that you became a believer in blockchain instantly.

Ingo:                            05:47   Instantly, maybe not. First, I found it interesting. And then it took me a lot of research, actually, not until I became a believer as I just don't believe in everything that's complicated. Normally it's much easier to believe in things which are straightforward and easy to understand. But blockchain is an exception to that. So, if you really dig into it, then you can start to believe,

Oz:                               06:12   That’s a fantastic journey. And just now brings me on to the actual project, KILT protocol. Can you tell the listeners what KILT is about and also what problem it's solving in the blockchain crypto space?

Ingo:                            06:25   Yeah, sure. So, we found that there's actually no real good solution for digital identity totally. Apart from blockchain, there is no good solution for digital identity, everything that we do right now with Auth 2 and all those things this is centralizing the world. It's centralizing power. It's taking away freedom and permissions from people, and this is actually what we don't want. So, I think that digital identity is generally broken. And what we were thinking about is can blockchain technology maybe help to overcome the difficulties which we have in digital identity, because digital identity is something that we need because we moving from a paper-based or plastic based society, more and more into digital identity, a digital society. And when the identity thing is not solved, well then, we have a huge problem. So, we said, okay let's try to solve it, or let's try to deliver a solution which could solve it.

                                    07:28   And this is basically what KILT is about, and this is also a big part of the Web3 movement, obviously, because about Web3 is the people who understand that the tool is basically broken many, many ways be it storage, be it trust, be it identity, many, many things are actually broken there. And this is why we very early, joined the about Web3 movement and want to become the go-to place for digital identity in in the Web3 world. So, this is basically what KILT is all about.

Dr. Crypto:                  08:06   Okay. That's interesting. I know talking about the importance of digital identity, what you touched upon. So, how does trust in the real world versus the digital world work? And also, maybe you can tell us about the process of verifying credentials in Web2, as opposed to what Web3 would solve by centralizing identifiers and identity.

Ingo:                            08:31   Yeah. So, first of all, it's very good that you made a difference between verifiable credentials and identifiers and identity; those things are different things. So, people always talk about identity and they don't really think a lot about what that actually is. What we believe is that identity actually consists of two things, one is an identifier, and an identifier, should always be really, really decentralized. So, for example, in the physical world an identifier for you would be your face, for example, or your fingerprint or something. And those things are obviously not given to you by a central entity. They're not given to you by your government or by a company or so they're just yours, right? And also, your name is one of them. Okay. If your parents are not a central entity, they're definitely de-centralized because there are so many parents out there. So, that's the identifier.

                                    09:23   And then this is not an identity already because it's just an identifier. In this podcast, if you identify me by the name, Ingo, that doesn't say anything about me but then I can show you a couple of my credentials, right? I can show you my driver's license and it says, I can drive a car and we can show you my passport and it says I'm European and I can show you my library card, and this can give you the notion that this guy can read and all that stuff. So, all those credentials are actually added to the identifier. And how's that done? Normally, if you look at the driver's license it probably has a picture of your face, right? So, that the verifier who wants to know if you can drive actually show him your driver's license, and then you can look at the driver's license. And, okay, this is obviously issued by a trusted entity, which I also trust.

                                    10:13   And then there's a picture of this guy, and this picture actually matches the guy who stands in front of me. So, obviously this guy can drive. So, that's how the process works. And this is the old process we had in the physical world and it was not so bad. Not only because it works for more than a thousand years now. There's many cool things to this process. One of them is that the guy who verified my driver's license didn't get in touch with the driver's license department. So, if I use my driver's license, for example, to get into a bar and to show that I'm 18 then I probably don't want the driver's license department to know that I have been drinking there.

                                    10:58   They don't need to know. And actually, they will never find out because there's no physical connection or electrical connection or whatever connection between the verifier, which was the barman. and the issuer of the driver's license, which is the driver's license department. It just works with the credential itself it’s a verifiable credential, and this is actually pretty cool. And when we then look into web two the current web, we didn’t just, look at Facebook at Google and all those companies, Twitter, or maybe other companies where you can get some part of your digital identity, actually. So, that's based on an identifier again, which is your user name and password if the username is already taken, then you can't have it. And the password is something that is also somehow regulated. And then the whole thing is obviously copied to the Facebook or whatever the big company is.

                                    11:57   So, it's not really yours. And then credentials are added to that in the way that you behave on the platform. And so, there's more and more information, but these credentials don't stay with you. Right? Like my driver's license is in my pocket, but the knowledge about me about my behavior on Facebook it’s not in my pocket it’s in their pocket. And if I ask them for that, I don't even really get it. And if I want to go to next day, I want to go to another assignment with WhatsApp which is part of the Facebook family. Then WhatsApp, I can sign in with Facebook, right? Which means I can sign in with my Facebook credentials. It means that WhatsApp and Facebook start discussing about me. And I don't even know what they say, but in the end, they tell me if they would let me in or not.

                                    12:49   And this takes a lot of freedom away from the people. So, this is how digital identity is handled in the current world, in the Web2. And we all know that this makes a lot of trouble, right? Because there's so many identities in one big database, it's great for hackers because they just have to break in once. And then they have millions of identities Deutsche Telekom  got hacked last night 50 million identities stolen; this happens every day. Another thing is that, of course people built or big companies build their business models on those identities, which means that my identity is actually some economic good, where other people started running my numbers. I don't really like that maybe. And so, there's been many things which are broken here and what we do at killed is basically that we bring the old paper plus the physical approach process into the digital world.

                                    13:48   So, in KILT you are called a claimer, as a person or as a machine or as a service wants to have an identity. You first generate your own decentralized identifier. This is done with a standard... which is the standardized part of the W3C, it's called, DID decentralized identifier. You generate that on your computer so, you own it definitely. You have a public and private key and to control it and you can share your public information with it. And then you can start adding credentials to this decentralized identifier. So, you can go to a trusted entity that can be your library. That can be a person that, you know, that can be a new type of social media or whatever. And you can ask them for a credential and then they will check if you deserve this credential. And if you deserve this credential, they will send it to you and you store this on your computer. So, now you have the credential and if someone want, to see your credentials, you choose if you show the credential, which part of the credential you showed, at what time you show it and to whom you showed. So, you have the freedom again, of the data, freedom, you have the serenity over your data again. So, this is the basic process that we set.

Oz:                               15:19   So, just one thing, just a very technical, and I'm trying to get my head round on all of this, and I'm sure the listeners as well. So, as long as you have your private key, nobody can access your credentials, your data. Is that, is that right? Because the private key obviously is unique. And as long as someone hacks into that or gets hold of that, your data is safe

Ingo:                            15:44   At your computer anyway, but it's worthless without the private key. So, you can, because the verifier would like to have your credential signed from you. So, to make sure that it's you and not someone else, that means, you know, that saying in the internet, no one knows that you are a dog that shouldn't happen in, in our system because in, in the physical world people show, people look at your identifier, right? They look at your picture, how will you do that in the internet? And this is what we do with the identify. So, the identifier is linked to the private key, and you have your credential with you and you choose when to use it. But when you use it, you sign it with your private key or you did in a way and then send it out so that the, so that the verifier can check that not only the credential is valid, it is issued by the right person or the, by the right entity. It is also valid on the current blockchain, and it is signed by you so that they can make sure they got a valid credential, which is issued by the right entity and presented by the correct person. Excellent.

Oz:                               16:52   Yeah, that's sounds good. And, you know, very secure as well. So, I just want you to go on to another question about partnerships and collaborations. You know, it's very important in the, especially now, too, to collaborate and build strong partnerships at the blockchain space. Can you tell us about any of your current partnerships or plans for partnerships and you know, are you linked to any other polka dot projects or anything like that?

Ingo:                            17:19   Yeah, so w we tried basically two things we tried to make partnerships inside and outside the blockchain world. We see a lot of partnerships inside the blockchain world, and they are definitely important and I'm going to come to them in a second. But I think it's also necessary for us to look a little bit out of our box, our little bubble, which we live in and, and get this thing into the, or get the blockchain technology or our technology in our case out there and be stopped being useful. And so that's the things that we also try. So, we have lots of partnerships outside the blockchain world, but you asked about inside the blockchain world and inside the blockchain world, we're definitely partnering with a lot of projects in the Polkadot ecosystem.

                                    18:03   And this is a really something I'd like to emphasize because when, when you are in the Polkadot ecosystem, you're basically you can't do without the partnerships. It doesn't really make sense to be there without partnerships, because what we building, you probably know everything about Polkadot. A Polkadot is a network of networks, right? So, we do as a, as a parachain in the polkadot ecosystem, what we do is we provide identity services and then other people provide services or other projects provide services like smart contracts and others do DeFi (Decentralized Finance) and lending and whatever platforms and become a lot more things. And we all share the security of this bond network, which is the pocket on the Polkadot or Kusama relay chain, but we have communication features, which we wouldn't have if we wouldn't be in there. So, the basic idea of what we do is we have to put we all have to start working together and produce something which wouldn't have been able to be produced if it wasn't for, for all the parts of it.

                                    19:16   So, this is what we're doing. So, we work with lots of the projects out there. Maybe we can talk about Moonbeam which is one of a great project. We are discussing a very interesting use case that we couldn't do together. And of course, we are also the projects, which are not. So, in the core, they're like PolkaDex where we started the project that we are talking with others and trying to find intelligent use cases where the, some of the things that the individual projects bring to the table are actually more than just the sum of it. So, that's makes sense. That's what we're trying, that's what we're trying to do. And I think the, that pocket encourages this in a big, big way far better than, for example, in Ethereum, where you basically, you are, when you have another project, which does another smart contract then you basically are competitor, right? Because you competing for the, for the computing power of the, of the network, and here you are doomed to work together. And this is actually a very nice feature of the secret,

Dr. Crypto:                  20:28   Interesting expression you use there in: “doomed to work together”, but I'm sure there are positives in that “doomed to work together”. And go, so I'm going to ask you about KILT Protocol’s developments. I mean, how does KILT Protocol, how is it developing currently? Because KILT Protocol has been in a development stage or, you know when everybody's the edge of their tongues, as you can see. So, can you describe the current development status and you know, future expansion plans, and expected applications?

Ingo:                            20:58   Yeah, sure. So, why isn't it like yet? Well, Parachains are premier, so people are running and tested mode for quite a while. But that wasn't boring because we had the chance of starting collaborations with many other projects, starting projects here and also building software around it and all that. So, that's, that's it it was not like we were sitting here for half a year and waiting to just go live. It's, there's, there's always a lot of, a lot of things that we can do. And we are right now in the stage where we are I think that was announced already. So, I can say that that we are going to be in the next batch of parachain auctions. We expect to go live within the, I don't know when they start, but in the next maybe weeks or months hopefully not months go live with this thing.

I:                                  21:51   And this is basically where the development status is. So, it's going to go live and then gradually like a normal, like normal in thePolkadot ecosystem, over a period of one- or two-months feature by feature is being added. And then we removed the Sudo Key, which means that the system is going to be decentralized. And it's basically governance owned or community owned. So, we, I'm pretty sure that we will reach this goal of having a completely community owned system earlier the end of the year, I would say, so that's the current plan. And then all the functionality around verifiable credentials, DIDs, and all that is already baked into the system and can use by anyone. So, this is already there. And then of course, there's other things to come. The, the biggest feature, which is going to come later, but, but later really means later that would be like maybe a year after the go live would be the so-called VCOs that's organizations, basically that issue verifiable credentials and they are, and those organizations are virtual. So, they are living only on the blockchain. So, this is a pretty new and a pretty exciting idea. And this is going to, this is going to be the second stage.

Dr. Crypto:                  23:18   That's actually fantastic information and very exciting news, sorry, go on Oz.

Oz:                               23:22   I'm just going to go back to the, you touch the customer powertrain options and all that sort of stuff. We don't know when it's going to be exactly, but we noticed that crowdloans have a wide range of rewards, you know, anything from 3% to 20, 30%. So, how do teams structure their awards and how does inflation impact dilution?

Ingo:                            23:42   Yeah, I think that's I think every project on Polkadot is different, right? So, you can't say they all have to be like this incentive or whatever model different projects think differently. So, if you are something like a DeFi project, or if you are an infrastructure project, like we are there, isn't, there's fundamental differences in the goals, right? So, when, when you do something as huge as digital identity you have to understand this is not going to work in half year, right? So, you're the whole, the, the huge success of this thing is a very long-lasting thing. Cause it has to trickle down into organizations, has to trickle down into governments and all those things, and governments don't decide like this year, right. It always takes a long time.

                                    24:36   So, what we have to do in our network for example, is that we have to be as stable as possible and as long lasting as possible. And if you build something like that, you would normally go for longing for, for a very small inflation rate. That means not a, there's not too many tokens out there in the beginning of the inflation goes very slowly. So, that it's in that it's not too much in those talking owners are not so much diluted. And so those things are I think important for, for, for a network like us, there's other networks, which do it in a different way and which, which can cope with a bigger inflation. So, I think a good example for because they have the needs for inflation. So, right from the top Polkadot is a network which needs a little bit of a bigger inflation than we do because they produce security inside their system and they do it and they produce the security with proof of stake.

                                    25:38   So, they need the stake to be in the value of the stakers actually. And so, they, they need to have a huge incentive basically to have people staking. And how do you incentivize people normally with rewards and this leads of course, to an inflation, which is bigger than ours, right? So, that's that, and then this is another story for different projects. And so that is really, that really depends very much on the project itself. How much, what is the ideal rate to configure a token economy? And well, we thought about talking economy, I think for the last six or eight months together with mathematicians and economists, basically everyone around. And I think what we figured out there it's quite nice and at least it is really, really stable or it should be really, really stable and attract people who believe in the system and want to stay with us for a while.

Dr. Crypto:                  26:40   Okay, fantastic. Just going back on to, you know, the digital identifiers and you know, the whole purpose of verifying credentials identifies and, you know, by greater reason identity we're talking about decentralization being the most central component of the KILT Protocol solutions proposal you know, looking at the future, obviously there's a natural fear for the user themselves, that there may be some type of risk of centralization in the future. So, how does KILT Protocol solve this issue that eliminates any type of risk of centralization?

Ingo:                            27:18   Well, first of all, I think what's important with protocol is that is, that is a completely decentralized system. So, not only that we take all security from the decentralized Polkadot/Kusama ecosystem or relay chains. A the parachain itself is a decentralized system, which is not owned by a company right now. It is owned by a company, but after decentralization, which is hopefully going to happen this year. And then the system is owned by the communities now that's even that. So, even the correlators, so that's the people who make together the blocks. Our permission lists anyone can become a call if they bond. So, that's, that's not controlled by a company or anything. So, that, that's one of the most, the most important thing here. I would say another thing is that there's decentralization by design because where can the centralization be if the individual holds the credential and the and the did that, they identify it.

                                    28:20   So, we really give it back to the people. So, how can be centralization happening inside of it? How can centralization happen there? Right? There is no central entity because there will be hundreds of thousands of different issuers. And if one issuer loses trust, basically because they do collect data, they misuse data or whatever they do with it. Then people will just walk off to the next issuer and trust this issue or more so the market is going to market is going to help there. And the, the data is basically not stored anywhere, the store only with the users. So, I think maybe one important thing about that is that the that the KILT blockchain does not hold the credentials. It just holds hashes of the credential. So, this does not include any personal data. It's just a hash of your credential to prove that your credential is valid.

                                    29:16   So, it's only the validity and not the content of a credential, which is stored on the KILT blockchain. The content of the credential is stored on the computer or on the phone of the user. And this is also what is de incentivizing hackers because a break into Facebook or last night, and through Deutsche Telekom I can steal 50 million sets of user data. If I break into my computer, I can steal one set of user data that isn't worth it. Right? And so, this is de incentivizing the hackers because we we'd get rid of the huge data monopolies of the huge silos, where all the data is stored and we decentralized directly to the people. So, if I steal your purse, maybe you got a hundred dollars in that. That's nice for me. And maybe you also got a passport and I got only one passport, right? If you, if you take all your friends and colleagues together, and they all stack their purses on, on one big pile, and then they put a lock in front of it, and I break the lock down, I have a lot of money and a lot of data. Yep.

Oz:                               30:26   This is more of a question. I asked this question to one of our previous guests on a, on another podcast as well. It's more of a fundamental type question. So, I'm, I'm hoping you can, you can answer this in a way, but when I, when we look at the general crypto market in terms of Bitcoin, because we know the market's still relatively new, it's in its, you know, it's in its infancy. So, when Bitcoin, say when Bitcoin crushes, everything else crushes with it, and just for people who are interested in KILT you know, how can you reassure them that the fundamentals can, for example, with standard bay market, I, you know, the project can be successful for the future.

Ingo:                            31:08   We cannot reassure anyone that anything in crypto is safe for the future. I think this is not possible if I were to try to know if I would do that, I would be a liar. So, everything, everything that you do crypto is absolutely risky because all the technology we're building is relatively new. And there's there might be issues in that, in the future. And so, no investment advice here, sorry. Yeah, no, actually

Oz:                               31:44   I'm glad you said that this, because it's, it's quite that's quite a real answer, like a very good answer for, for people to understand that. I think what you're building KILT [Protocol] is something that, you know, has integrity and, and looking to actually solve a real problem. And just nothing. How did you come up with the name KILT? Because it's a very interesting name.

Ingo:                            32:05   Yeah, we were thinking about how can we, we were thinking of selective disclosure, this is one of the futures that KILY has, which means that you can show a part of your credential, like, like showing your driver's license and just showing the part where you are where your date of birth is, but not your name or something, because why would bartender need to know your name. Right. So, this is what's called selective disclosure, and we were thinking of a picture for selective disclosure. And then we thought of KILT actually because a lot of them can tell you the guy's probably Scottish menswear and they can tell you when you can read the patterns that can also tell you which clan this person comes from, right. But still hides parts, which you probably don’t want to see.

Dr. Crypto:                  32:54   Interesting. That is actually an interesting answer there Ingo, and something that I did not expect, but, you know, we, we're here to learn something new every day on top of what you've already explained from the more serious matters, but I'm sure that's a fantastic analogy in terms of what KILT does and its overall philosophy. Now Ingo, we're going to ask you about your personal ideas or opinions. And you know, you're a big advocate seems from this interview of Web3. I mean, where do you see Web3 and blockchain in the future from a personal perspective?

Ingo:                            33:29   I think Web3 is the first real big use case for blockchain. Sometimes like to compare the blockchain evolution a little bit to the internet and evolution and as I'm so old I can already, I already thought I saw how it worked with the internet. So, the internet is something from the seventies or eighties or so of the last century, but it's got a first significance maybe with the web one that was the web where you could publish things, but that would be basically it and every company would have a landing page and then people could look at the landing page that was pretty boring. But it's it already initiated some kind of a hype out there and then internet companies came up and then people started to invest a lot of money there, and lost a lot of money.

                                    34:22   And so I would compare this web one in blockchain, a little bit with the, with everything that we have with the people speculating right now, everything which is in Bitcoin. And also, the, the DeFi could count into that. And then the internet actually became really, really interesting and the big industry when it became interactive, which was the partner when the tool was born and then Facebook were there when the other companies like Google started businesses on top of that and like search engine and all those things when, when they emerged by, towards the end of the nineties. And then the big thing, the next big thing that happened was obviously that the data became ... So, I think we will, we are going to have those evolutionary steps as well, but we are at step number one right now.

Ingo:                            35:18   And Web3  is probably the next big thing for, for blockchain, because it is going to transport the technology into the everyday life because people in everyday life actually, they use storage. And why wouldn't they use storage? Why would they use storage in something like Amazon web services when there's a nice possibility to have a decentralized and maybe together with the guys from protocol labs/private coin and why would they actually have their digital identity in a centralized big silo when it is possible with KILT and so on and so on and on, but it's not us, right? It's, it's, it's hundreds of companies working on this album three idea together. And I think we are going to deliver solutions in the next year. It's not tomorrow solutions which are capable of making everyday life a little bit safer and also still practical.

Ingo:                            36:26   And I think that's very important to have things which are not like absolutely complicated to use. So, the user experience must be nice. And this is what we were trying to build as well. So, we build and building some applications on top of killed which can be used by like everyone without noticing that there's a blockchain behind that and all those complicated things, but just being practical and being a little bit safer and being a little bit more decentralized and saving data and being a little bit more sovereign or giving more sovereignty to the, to the actual user. And I think sorry, I think we're three long story short, but three years are going to be probably the first real-world use case for the people out there. And this is going to propel the whole blockchain ecosystem into a nice future for you.

Dr. Crypto:                  37:21   Interesting time. Yeah. Yup. Interesting times ahead. Oz do you have any other questions to ask Ingo?

Oz:                               37:26   No, I think you might have some fun type of questions now, I guess.

Dr. Crypto:                  37:31   Yeah, before we get onto the fun round Ingo, because it's become customary for us on Crypto Unplugged, to ask our special guests some questions that are unrelated to crypto or blockchain and to actually play on your subconscious. But before we do that Ingo, I'm going to ask you if you were to describe KILT Protocol okay. And match KILT Protocol or the philosophy of KILT Protocol with a fictional television or historical character or movie, whatever, which one would you choose?

Ingo:                            38:06   Probably Highlander because of the KILT.

Dr. Crypto:                  38:09   That's actually interesting. That is interesting. Okay. There you guys have it KILT Protocol and Highlander as much in personality of KILT protocol. So, listeners stick around because we're going to put Ingo on the spot to ask and play on his subconscious to ask our quick-fire round.

Announcer:                 38:28   This is Crypto Unplugged.

Dr. Crypto:                  39:40  Ingo look, it's been an absolute pleasure having you as our special guest on our show. Do you have any final thoughts for our listeners to our community?

Ingo:                            39:49   Yeah. Just keep on building great things. I think that's the most important thing be builders don't own the speculate on crypto, get this out of the speculation, get it out, and get it into the building. Th this is what we try at the three. This is what we try that killed all the time to get the best brain away from the charts and into the code. I think this is the most important thing that we have to learn. The community is still far too small, and we have to start attracting more great brains into this thing to be able to change the world for a better place and

Dr. Crypto:                  40:31   Ingo, you've already enlightened us with some visionary, final thoughts there. And thank you very much for coming on to our show and thanks to Christine and Elisa for keeping in contact with us. Oz, always a pleasure. Do you have anything to say?

Oz:                               40:45   Just a thank you for taking the time to join us. It was fantastic having you on, and we've learned loads.

Dr. Crypto:                  40:52   Thanks a lot gold for giving us a lot of revealing and interesting information. And hopefully, we can get you on our show in the near future . Listener, that's it, what we have today. I'm sure you've learned a lot. It's been very educational from someone who's been around for a long time in the blockchain and crypto space and a lot of revealing information in terms of the technology, what KILT protocol provides, and the listener, as usual, stay tuned, subscribe, and see you on the next one.

Outro:                         41:20   Thanks for listening to Crypto Unplugged. We hope you learned something from this episode for more information, check us out on Twitter at crypto underscore unplug. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to like, and review us. And thanks again for listening to Crypto Unplugged.